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Power and data on a single coax cable - RF Cafe Forums
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rhristov
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Post subject: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:24 pm
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010
5:14 pm Posts: 3 |
Hi all, I am looking to use a single coax cable,
say 10m long, for both power and data transmission
between 2 units, which are sealed in their own metal
boxes with no possibility for external antennas.
The power signal is 100-500kHz, 20-100Vp-p AC
wave, close to sine, but with some harmonics on
it. I am hoping to put 2 embedded RF modules
into the 2 boxes and connect them to the coax via
capacitive or inductive means to protect them from
the power signal. This way, I hope, the coax will
replace the antenna in between the modules and will
shield them from external interference. I need data
rates > 56Kbps.
Is this possible and what
type of RF module would you suggest? Thanks.
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Paul Chriss |
Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:03 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006
10:12 am Posts: 8 |
DC power on the center conductor is used all the
time. Satellite antennas (Earth-based) use that
on their horn-mounted amplifiers as a matter of
course. There are loads of articles by Ham operators
and professional companies on how to do it. Basically,
all you need to do is place a high-impedance (at
RF) choke in the DC feed line and then recover it
at the far end the same way.
...{local}...........coax
cable........{remote}
RF --(-)------------------------------------(-)-
RF .......|.....|.........................|....|
.....GND...|.........................|...GND
..........choke...................choke
.............|.........................|
......DC----..........................----
DC
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karthik |
Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:56 pm
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006
8:13 pm Posts: 34 |
What is your RF frequency? I would recommend characterizing
(if at all possible) the power signal in the RF
band - especially since the power is not pure sine
and will have harmonics to it - to verify that any
leakage (if at all) does not degrade the RF performance.
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biff44 |
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Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:27 pm
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009
11:07 am Posts: 33 |
Well, yes and no. You can not send a digital baseband
signal at 56 kbps on a cable with lots of 100 KHz
to 500 KHz noise on it! It just won't work. You
would have to lowpass filter the digital signal
so heavily that you would have all sorts of intersymbol
interference.
Now, it you modulate the 56
kbps signal onto something like a 70 MHz carrier,
and demodulate it at the other end...then it is
a piece of cake.
Like someone else said,
the common way to send power on a coax cable is
to convert the power to DC first, then diplexer
filtering will be easy.
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rhristov |
Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:24 pm
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010
5:14 pm Posts: 3 |
biff44 wrote:
Now, it you modulate the 56 kbps signal onto
something like a 70 MHz carrier, and demodulate
it at the other end...then it is a piece of
cake.
Thanks for your reply. I really need
AC for power on this coax because one of the units
can be on a rotating table in a sealed metal chamber
and a rotating transformer is the only way.
At the same time the only data path is through the
same coax on a high frequency carrier. I hoped someone
would mention experience with bluetooth used in
a similar configuration. Would be a perfect fit
with its data rate. "Wired" Bluetooth anyone?
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nubbage |
Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:23 pm
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General |
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006
12:07 pm Posts: 218 Location: London UK
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I agree with other replies: this approach is messy.
Using some lateral thinking, why not use slip rings
to transfer data across a rotating cell? The
CCTV industry uses composite miniature cable for
this type of application, whereby data for pan/tilt
heads and zoom lens control use a CAT6 screened
twisted pair, and the video uses a miniature 75ohm
coaxial. Or you may have other constraints that
rule that out.
_________________ At bottom, life is all
about Sucking in and blowing out.
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Mike_From_Plano |
Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:41 pm
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009
2:04 pm Posts: 14 |
Interesting problem. In this age, there are any
number of little RF modules that will get data from
one side to the other.
I wouldn't limit myself
to the newer technologies like Blue Tooth and Zigbee.
The integration would likely prove more of a hassle
than they're worth.
RF solutions has some
fairly tame modules as does Linx Technologies and
RadioTronix.
You should get far more signal
than you need or want on the receiver side, so along
with a simple L-C filter, drop in an attenuator
on both sides, at least 10dB I'd think. This will
help you're electronics survive the occasional spike
on the AC side and keep your receiver from being
over driven by the transmitter.
If you want
to put some more project risk / fun into it (with
less production cost), you might try experimenting
with Ti's TLC2933A PLL.
- Mike
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rhristov |
Post subject: Re: Power and data on a single coax cable
Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:27 pm
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010
5:14 pm Posts: 3 |
Thank you all for your replies. I am still researching
this as an idea, nothing practical is done yet.
I send the same question to several companies
that make RF modules, but no one said "It will work
with our module". Seems like this is an "out
there" problem and no one has done it yet. We
already use similar configuration with 8MHz carrier,
made with discrete components. We can get only 9600baud,
it is bulky, hard to tune and a lot of trouble.
I am looking for a simple "drop in" solution that
is a lot faster and simple to tune. I will continue
checking this post, may be someone will mention
similar experience.
Thanks again
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Posted 11/12/2012
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